Profiles in D&I Leadership – James L. Chosy

The FBA is powerfully situated—and bears critical responsibility—to ensure that federal practice and federal courts truly reflect the rich diversity of the nation we serve. The FBA’s Committee on Diversity and Inclusion was established to lead the organization in fulfilling this responsibility by advancing diversity, equity and inclusion, both within the organization, and in the broader legal community. A core component of the Committee’s work involves ongoing guidance from and partnership with Advisory Boards composed of national D&I leaders. By learning from and collaborating with these leaders from around the country, our collective effort toward true diversity, equity, and inclusion in the federal legal community is critically strengthened.

We welcome and encourage you to share these profiles and to join in the work of the FBA D&I Committee.  Learn more about our ongoing work here. 

Tara Norgard

Chair, FBA Diversity & Inclusion Committee

 

Mr. James L. Chosy, Senior Executive VP and General Counsel, U.S. Bancorp

Interviewer: Peter S. Hyun, Wiley (phyun@wiley.law)

 

  James L. Chosy                                         Peter S. Hyun

Peter: Hi Jim – pleasure to meet you. Could you please provide some background on your journey to becoming General Counsel at U.S. Bank?

Jim: Sure.  I certainly didn’t start my legal career wanting to be a general counsel, or even an in-house lawyer.  I didn’t know enough to know what that meant.  I do not come from a family of lawyers and really had no lawyers in my immediate orbit.  Coming out of law school at the University of Minnesota, the only thing I knew was that I didn’t want to do litigation, thinking it just didn’t fit my personality. I was fortunate to have a great learning experience at my first job at the law firm of Dorsey & Whitney in Minneapolis, and quickly gravitated to the corporate group and the corporate practice. I began doing public company and transactional work, including for a predecessor bank to U.S. Bank.  I eventually moved in-house there when a Dorsey senior partner with whom I did a lot of work became general counsel and invited me to join him.  During my tenure, the bank acquired a mid-sized investment bank called Piper Jaffray Companies, and I was asked to serve as its general counsel.  I readily agreed, and inside of two years the bank spun out Piper as its own independent public company.  I went with it and served as general counsel for over 12 years. Then in 2013, my predecessor at U.S. Bank retired and I was invited to return, which I did having come full circle from my first move in-house.  I’ve been very lucky to have had some amazing opportunities and have never looked back from leaving private practice.

Peter: A lot of lawyers across the country look to you as a leader on issues of diversity, equity, and inclusion.  Could you describe how this issue first became a priority for you?

Jim: I’d be happy to. I’m not sure whether there was a seminal moment in time – I’ve always been interested in issues relating to justice, and equality and opportunity, particularly because they are so core to the legal profession. I am incredibly proud to be a lawyer and I have great regard for the profession as a whole and want it to be representative of all of those who seek to or should participate in it.  It’s a higher calling, and a trust for those who pursue it and those it serves. 

To know that the legal profession still frequently measures as the least diverse of comparable white-collar professions like medicine, architecture, accounting, and engineering, is unacceptable.  To me, the law should be first – not last.

I’ve also come to appreciate just how essential diversity is to the actual work of lawyering.  Our clients depend on us for the best service and advice.  We really need a diverse set of perspectives to bring the best intelligence to what we do.  A homogenous set of lawyers just can’t do the same job as a diverse set of minds in solving complex problems.  What has also accelerated my thinking on this is that for my industry in particular – financial services and banking – everything has been moving towards technology and digitization.  To me, diversity is really a key to creativity and unlocking innovation in these critical areas as is being demanded by the marketplace.

Peter: I’d love to unpack that idea a little bit. You’ve previously stated that “delivering advice and counseling our clients” . . . “to do that well we really need diverse talent to bring diverse perspectives to work.” Are there some specific examples where you’ve observed that first-hand?

Jim: Pick any day of the week or any meeting we have or any decision we take, and to me diversity just leads to much better brainstorming, much better discussions, and ultimately, much better decisions and problem-solving.  I’ve always thought of in-house law practice as a team sport.  To have a great team, you need a diverse set of complementary players with different experiences and skills. We’re working continually to find that right set of diverse and complementary players for our Law Division team.

For example, as I mentioned banking is rapidly transforming by going digital across new payment systems.  Just think about how much banking you can do on your mobile phone today that previously required you to walk into a traditional bank branch and transact with paper.  Consequently, as bank lawyers we’re needing to think differently and much more creatively and with an eye to the future.  Our mandate now involves more right-brained thinking.  This means that to perform optimally, we need a much broader array of backgrounds, perspectives, disciplines and expertise than ever before.  Said more simply, we need more diversity in our ranks than ever before.

Peter: You’ve also previously talked about how in the legal profession, things are “slow to change” and that there are a lot of “legacy barriers and impediments” that are not yet fully addressed or eradicated, which makes progress on DE&I challenging.  What are some of those barriers that you have observed while trying to build a more inclusive workplace?

Jim: Historically, the legal profession has been slow to change in many respects.  Lawyers and legal organizations tend to resist change; we don’t necessarily embrace it.  We can be risk averse and like to rely on precedent, in our caselaw analysis but also in the way we lead, manage and operate.  Some of the legacy barriers include access. The law has been and largely remains more exclusive than inclusive.  Hierarchical systems tend to be run by majority lawyers; we still don’t have enough diversity in leadership ranks due to both explicit and implicit discrimination and biases over time. In an apprenticeship profession, confirmation bias can reinforce the status quo rather than opening things up to historically underrepresented groups whether in recruiting, work assignments, promotional opportunities, compensation, or billing credit in law firms.  Even the billable hour system is a barrier, devaluing unbillable time spent on things like diversity work. 

Peter: At U.S. Bank you’ve made some inroads on gender diversity but you yourself have acknowledged you have a ways to go with respect to professionals of color.  When you look at internal data, or KPI’s (key performance indicators) on the topic of the advancement of people of color – what are some of the data points that you specifically look for?

Jim: Yes, we’re working hard but certainly don’t have it all figured out and are not where we want to be yet.  Key data points would include hiring, promotion and turnover of diverse professionals.  Are you bringing in enough diverse talent, are you providing promotional and advancement opportunities in a representative way, and are you retaining your diverse talent?  With these three metrics, you can get a pretty good sense of how you are doing.  Of course, the goals are critically important—what are you measuring against? How are you defining success in your department or organization? 

Maybe one of the most important things though it’s less measurable is the amount of time spent on DE&I by the leader, whether it’s the CEO of the company, the general counsel of the organization, or the managing partner of the law firm. Without a big commitment of time and attention by the leader, you’re not going to get anywhere – I’m convinced. 

Peter: What type of data or information do you look at when U.S. Bank is looking to hire outside counsel?

Jim: Good question.  We have a preferred law firm program which we set up a couple of years ago which represents 40+ firms that make up probably 80% of our legal spend.  We made it a criteria of the program that firms meet certain requirements related to diversity. 

For example, we ask them if they have signed up to adhere to Diversity Lab’s Mansfield Rule, and if not, to do so.  Of the list of 40+ firms we have, there were seven or eight that, but for us asking them to do that, would not have.  And there was one firm that wrote me a very thoughtful letter after we made this request, admitting that while they had heard of the Mansfield Rule before they were not overly familiar with it.  But when they looked at it, they liked what they saw and were excited to sign up.  That was quite gratifying for us, and also reinforcing of what I often hear from lawyers at big law firms—corporate clients can help influence progress by expressly asking for it.  

We also require that there be one diverse leader on the client service team for U.S. Bank. And then we also ask firms for a broad array of diversity data.  We want to work with firms that share our values, diversity being one of our core values. 

Last year, we also instituted a new award called “Invested in Diversity” – a recognition for a law firm that we thought stood out for its diversity efforts. Morgan Lewis was the firm we recognized last year. And to memorialize its effort and the recognition, we commissioned a local Twin Cities-based artist who created an original sculpture called, “We the People,” representing the Little Rock Nine from 1957. It was just a unique way of showing our appreciation and commendation of their good work.

Peter: You lived through the last recession in 2008, and many in the legal bar and the community have been sounding the alarm about how the economic difficulties due to the current pandemic may similarly disproportionately affect women and people of color within law firms, law departments of companies, nonprofit organizations and public entities. What are your thoughts on this?

Jim: It’s a great question and there’s been a lot of talk and frankly anxiety in the broader profession about that.  We must be vigilant in guarding against any regression on the progress we’ve made with diversity in the profession.  It would be quite short-sighted to knowingly lose ground, and I’m hopeful that most legal employers are self-aware enough to not let that happen.  COVID-19 can’t be an excuse; our resolve must remain strong.  Diversity, equity and inclusion are more important than ever, now, in this crisis moment.  The current environment demands innovation and creativity in solving tough problems. Diversity of background and perspective is critical to each of these.  This should be an opportunity for greater gains, not regression.  I’d also say that inclusion is paramount in this new world of remote work environments which can feel isolating, so we must be even more focused on that piece of DE&I. 

Peter: You are based in Minneapolis, the city in which George Floyd died. His death, as well as incidents all over the country, have spurred conversations not just about policing, but racial justice more broadly, in workplaces and communities in America. The Federal Bar Association issued a statement denouncing racial injustice, and U.S. Bank has also taken steps to fight against racial injustice.  How have you been thinking about your organization’s role in the broader fight against racial injustice?

Jim: We’ve been thinking and talking a lot about racial justice in the wake of the horrific killing of George Floyd right here in Minneapolis, now the epicenter of our national reckoning on racism. I live in South Minneapolis, not too far away from where it happened. It’s been an incredibly painful time for our city and community.  Particularly, and obviously, for our African American citizens.  While I’m sickened and devasted by what happened, I am hopeful for positive change and encouraged that the outrage and the demands for equality and justice have not abated.  American society has much to atone for, from 1619 to today, and we must.  We at U.S. Bank and in my Law Division certainly have a role to play in what needs to happen from here.  At the bank level, we’ve announced multiple investments (over $100mm) and initiatives to bridge gaps and address inequities.  Within my legal group, we’ve announced a new commitment to racial justice in the form of a stand-alone program focused on education and community action and service, and that will leverage our existing pro bono and DE&I programs.  Educational efforts will address racism, anti-racism and racial justice, while community action will extend beyond traditional pro bono legal services and could involve things like education, housing, voting rights, criminal justice reform, or policing reform.  I feel a special responsibility in this, as a corporate leader with a platform, as a lawyer and representative of the legal system, and as a citizen of Minneapolis.  We are committed to the journey of standing against racism and working with purpose to learn, grow, build community and foster change.  There is much work to do, and it’s overdue.  We all must be better and do better.

Peter: The role of the general counsel, as you know, is very multifaceted beyond simply providing sound legal advice. When you think about the skills that are needed to do the job well, what advice would you give to younger lawyers aspiring to rise to that level within an organization?

Jim: The advice I would offer is to prepare yourself well.  Abraham Lincoln once said as a young man, “I will prepare and someday my chance will come.” If you are an in-house lawyer looking to move up, prepare yourself.  Learn the business, inside and out.  Meet people and learn what they do.  Serve the organization and your clients as best you can.  Volunteer and take up responsibility, even if outside your normal lane.  Become less of a lawyer and more of a business partner who happens to have a legal background.  The job of the general counsel is at least three roles in one: leader/manager, counselor/advisor, and lawyer.  In that order of importance.  Try to become all three.  I would also say try to demonstrate the qualities sought in a general counsel. Things like good judgment, problem-solving ability, strong communication skills, high ethics and integrity, creativity, a service-orientation, and drive.  Very importantly too, enthusiasm.  Businesspeople want to work with lawyers they like to work with. Lastly, I’d say that because the road to becoming a general counsel is very demanding and can be consuming, try to retain your humanity.  Be a human being, too.  As the author Anna Quindlen once said, “You cannot be really first-rate at your work, if your work is all you are.”

Peter: Thank you so much Jim for your time.

Jim: Thank you, Peter.

 

About James L. Chosy

Jim Chosy is Senior Executive Vice President and General Counsel of U.S. Bancorp, the parent company of U.S. Bank, the fifth largest commercial bank in the United States. Chosy is responsible for all aspects of the company’s legal affairs.