Profiles in Leadership – Bethany Drucker

The FBA is powerfully situated—and bears critical responsibility—to ensure that federal practice and federal courts truly reflect the rich diversity of the nation we serve. The FBA’s Committee on Diversity and Inclusion was established to lead the organization in fulfilling this responsibility by advancing diversity, equity and inclusion, both within the organization, and in the broader legal community. A core component of the Committee’s work involves ongoing guidance from and partnership with Advisory Boards composed of national D&I leaders. By learning from and collaborating with these leaders from around the country, our collective effort toward true diversity, equity, and inclusion in the federal legal community is critically strengthened.

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Tara Norgard

Chair, FBA Diversity & Inclusion Committee

Bethany Drucker            William D. Goren

Interview with Bethany Drucker, General Counsel, A.S.G. Staffing, Member Federal Bar Association Corporate Advisory Board. Edited for clarity and length.

William D. Goren: From all the work I do in the diversity and inclusion space with respect to disability inclusion, and I don’t know many general counsels that are out about any one of their disabilities. I certainly don’t know many while stressing pushing their companies to understand their disability compliance obligations and stress the importance of people with disabilities to their companies. So, I think you bring a unique perspective to all that.

Bethany Drucker: Thank you. I’m general counsel of a staffing company. So, we place temporary employees in light industrial settings. I always say what I do is like employment law on steroids. You’re dealing with the employee, you’re dealing with the company, you’re dealing with the third-party company, and then you’re dealing with the other agencies that are in there. There are so many levels of issues that go into this field; especially with diversity and inclusion and anywhere from racism to sexism to age discrimination to disability. There are two prongs I see with ADA disability: there’s the medical prong -where people say, okay, this is how we’re going to treat it. And then there’s the social prong – which involves the discrimination, the stigma, the false assumptions that someone who maybe is hard of hearing, someone who’s epileptic, someone who has Down Syndrome, that that person can’t perform the job. And most of the time, if someone believes they can perform the essential functions of the job with a reasonable accommodation, and it’s not an undue hardship, it can be done. It’s just educating, not just the other companies, not just our company, but the line leads in the factories, educating everyone that people win when you give people jobs. A, it’s good for morale. B, it’s good for the economy. C, it’s the right thing to do. We didn’t choose how we were born if you were born with a disability. And some people develop them with various health issues over a lifetime. And as we see now, especially with COVID, there are going to be more and more and more people with disabilities and now, more than ever, every company, whether you’re a temporary employee company, whether you’re a Fortune 500 company which has white collar workers. Everyone must start accommodating and recognizing it.

William D. Goren: Do you find the people that, the personnel that you’ve used in your agency, are they open about their disabilities or do you have to encourage them to open up because they have protected rights?

Bethany Drucker: It’s two-fold. We make sure that everyone understands that if you need a reasonable accommodation, to reach out to HR. And then HR will get me involved and we’ll have the interactive discussions. Oftentimes, people don’t let us know because they’re afraid that there’s going to be discrimination, and so we find out from the client. Or else, what I consider, now more than ever, we have to be vigilant about what I consider an obvious disability and that may be someone who’s going to the bathroom excessively.  They may have diabetes. They may have a prostate issue. They may be on medication. Those are the things that would then trigger me to have an interactive conversation. More commonly now, is depression and the various spectrums of that. So I have an employee who maybe didn’t have any issues, was a high performer, spoke very eloquently. Now, all of a sudden, that employee is erratic, they’re up, they’re down, they’ll cry, they’re not making sense, they’re confused. And it’s not just one day, but maybe it’s going on for a week. I have a conversation with that employee, because to me, that disability has become obvious. That is a mental disability and we can accommodate that. I’m seeing more and more of that and I’m hoping employers at all levels are recognizing that, when it is an obvious disability, we have the duty to engage in the interactive discussion. It’s not that the employee has to come to out with it, if to me, it is obvious.

But it also comes with treating employees as peers. We’re not big on corporate bureaucracy at my company. We don’t have these multifaceted layers. I wear many hats. So when you’re in a position that you talk to a lot of people, you see a lot of people, you get to know people’s personalities and you can see when someone’s off. Our job is, we’re in the people business. Our commodity isn’t widgets, isn’t clothing or food or technology, it is people. I think that’s another reason why we’re so focused on equality, diversity and inclusion is because our commodity is human beings. I can’t possibly protect my company without protecting the people we put to work. So, we take tremendous pride in trying to do the right thing. Mistakes happen and then we always work hard to correct it. No-one’s perfect. We try to be proactive.

William D. Goren: I was just wondering, clearly you have a professional reason for doing this and believing in this, but you’re clearly on a mission and this is personal to you. I’m just wondering why is this a personal and professional mission to you?

Bethany Drucker: I’ve been hard of hearing my entire life. I had to see a speech therapist as a child. I’m deaf in my left ear and that’s my entire life. But as I got older, and it wasn’t until my mid-thirties, I was diagnosed with cancer. I am now, 14 years later, still dealing with different levels of cancer. And as a result of some of the cancer treatments, I did develop epilepsy. So I am someone that really understands people with disabilities, illnesses and sicknesses. Because there’s a stigma that goes into it if someone finds out, she has cancer or he has cancer. They’re thinking oh that’s so horrible for that person. But the employer is thinking, “Wow, does this mean that person’s not going to be working; do I have to replace them; how long are they taking off on FMLA; can they perform the work?” I’ve always worked. That’s been one of the things that helped me is that I’ve always worked. I find doing that provides me a mission, keeps my mind active, keeps me focused on other things and working with people, which I love. I’m someone that likes people, it helps me as well. So, yes, it is personal.

And, in my spare time I try and help various people with understanding what their rights are at work, to ask for reasonable accommodation. How they can do it and sometimes to be realistic. For instance, I can’t drive. I have epilepsy. So I’m never going to take a job that’s going to be sales job on the road where I have to do all of that. So being realistic, what we can do, and learning more about that. Understanding if someone is going through radiation or chemo, to understand the side effects that those drugs may cause and then what kind of reasonable accommodation do you need for that?  I’m very understanding of people’s health and everybody has something, whether it is a disability where it limits a life function or whether it’s something that they live with that doesn’t interfere. But everybody has something.  I think, basically the entire world can have some level of empathy towards people with disabilities. And people are judgmental on how you look. If I look normal, that’s great. If I’m really sick and if I’ve lost some weight or my hair, people judge you. We have such a visually brutal society. People judge on how you look. They back away if someone doesn’t look like them. This can go on many different levels, not just for disability. So again, I’m really pro-inclusion.

William D. Goren: Most of the time you hear people become general counsel because that was the client they serviced at the firm and the firm said come join me. Was your path typical that way or did you take another path.

Bethany Drucker: Mine’s a little not and typical at the same time. First of all, I didn’t go to law school straight out of college like most people.

William D. Goren: Good for you. I did it straight like most people, but I am convinced that you are much better off taking two years off before going to law school. You’ll have a much better experience. That’s just me.

Bethany Drucker: I worked. I owned and operated two retail stores. Opened them up and then decided to go to law school. But after law school, I worked in billable law firms. I worked in matrimonial law and criminal defense; highly, highly antagonistic on one side and I would always say, the criminal defense clients were so easy; the matrimonial clients, crazy. But again, I like working with people; you learn a lot. Billable hours were definitely… actually, it was kind of fun. At that age, who needs sleep. Then I actually got diagnosed with cancer and I ended up deciding to move… I’m a New Yorker. I was living on Long Island and then I moved here to Chicago, because my sister’s here.  Then, I accepted one of the world’s best jobs, (short of working at the House of Blues in 1992), this was the second best job. I worked for the City of Chicago Inspector General’s Office. I worked on investigations, state, local and federal, tremendously interesting, tremendously fun and you’re part of a team. I worked with people while learning all the nuances of the various laws, various violations, various personalities. I also interviewed a lot of people, and I enjoyed that. So, I left billable hours to do public sector work and it was wonderful. I absolutely loved it. The reason I ended up leaving was the City was having a lot of financial hardships. We had 26 unpaid furloughs and I really wanted to get back to practicing law. I highly recommend for anyone who wants to be an attorney to do two things. One is, when you’re young, get a job in customer service. It’s so humbling to be yelled at by people.

William D. Goren: I completely agree with that. I think anybody, regardless of your profession, should be in customer service at some point. I did Borders, and it certainly made me a much better attorney having had those years of retail experience. There’s absolutely no doubt about it.

Bethany Drucker: After the Inspector General’s Office, I went to work for myself and I had several clients, one of which is my current employer. They were a client and then they had asked me to come on board and work just for them and no-one else. So that’s how I managed to get the general counsel position. It’s been a wonderful, wonderful experience.

William D. Goren: Is it just you, yourself and you in the general counsel’s office or do you have attorney’s working for you?

Bethany Drucker: I am the entire legal team for our entire corporate staff. We have eight offices in three different states and we also have a sister company. We give out about 10,000 to 13,000 W-2s a year. I am the entire legal staff. Luckily since I’ve been with them, started in 2014, we have not had one employment law related lawsuit, no fines, no EEOC charges or Illinois Department of Human Rights claims that have stuck. We’re very, very proactive and we work as a team. There’s no egos. I’ll pick up the phone and talk to a complainant. We speak to the clients. We treat everyone like human beings. And it is busy busy work, but I love it. Being a general counsel, you’re wearing many different hats.

William D. Goren: You mentioned you haven’t had any of those EEOC type suits, and so you must have some kind of system then where nobody gets terminated or let go without you reviewing it first. Otherwise, I don’t see how that works.

Bethany Drucker: Well, that doesn’t always happen because in the temporary staffing, a client may let someone go and I find out about it later. So immediately, we’ll get on it and sometimes we have to take corrective measures where we err on the side of caution. If I think this person shouldn’t have been let go by the client, we’ll take care of them and make sure they have other assignments and then educate the client. It does come from the top down.

The owner of the company, who I report to, terrific guy. He himself, he’s a cancer survivor, so he understands people with disabilities. He’s someone that really, really works hard. We all work together and keep our egos in check. Everyone can step in and help anyone at any time. If payroll needs something, they need me to do something, I’ll do it. We really work as a team and that’s something that separates us from other companies, is working as a team. And the team isn’t just legal, it’s HR, work comp, operations, payroll, sales. We’re all in the team. We really try and instill that and help the employees. In any given day, I can get an email or phone call and my day is shot -then I don’t get done with work until midnight. But it’s good work. There is something very rewarding about helping people find work and maintain work. I’m also very passionate about helping ex-offenders.

William D. Goren: I can’t imagine many other temporary agencies are taking the top down, people first approach that you all are taking. Am I off base or is there something to that?

Bethany Drucker: No, you’re spot on. And we’re also maybe not the most… Maybe we don’t have the same revenue levels the others do because they may bill more and make more money. But we spend more on quality, our people and having a good business. The temp industry is very rough. It can be cut-throat and we are not a dispatch agency, which means there are some agencies, people come in and they’re just dispatched right out. We hear horror stories of people getting… well, you can Google staffing agencies and lawsuits and have reading from now to Christmas. But we really try and do the right thing.

Illinois is so heavily regulated. We have the Illinois Day and Temporary Labor Services Act. We have everything else that all other states have and a lot of protection for employees, which is terrific. The only downside to that is the implementation of these protections, meaning that, for each temporary employee who maybe doesn’t have more than a GED, they have to be given and understand and review enormous amount of paperwork just to get to the pool of candidates, because those are all mandated policies and laws. It can become cumbersome for the employee. So we work hard, if anyone has questions, to reach out to HR, reach out to me. But, to answer your question, I haven’t had any lawsuits, and I’m not just doing the self-praise for our company, ASG staffing, but I haven’t seen other large staffing companies or medium sized staffing companies for temporary workers in manufacturing go to this level. They may be making more money, but we have good people and we can go to sleep at night knowing we did the right thing.

William D. Goren: I’m wondering what are you hoping to bring to the Federal Bar Association Corporate Advisory Board?

Bethany Drucker: Well, I’d like to bring, it’s not just awareness, but a plan of action. People can do trainings which can bring a level of awareness, but trainings are only beneficial if people actually practice them. If not, they’re a two-hour webinar, live in person, and then people go onto the next thing. People have short term memories. I want to see a plan of action, how people can reach out to work with people with disabilities. Just like some job specs maybe have to be tailored differently. So that way, it can include and encourage people to apply from all walks of life. Everyone, whatever protected status, everyone should be able to apply for a job that they can perform the essential functions with or without a reasonable accommodation.

I would like to see more of a level of action. People, especially in the general counsel roles, to roll up their sleeves a little bit more involved and get to know what happens below them.  There’s a lot of delegating going on and maybe some more people learning to walk in other people’s shoes (cross-training). Maybe that person spending time in that department so you see, understand a level of empathy, what obstacles the people in that department have, how we can place people, how we can help people. It’s an overall level of just working together, teamwork.

William D. Goren: How do you assemble teams to accomplish company goals?

Bethany Drucker: What I do with our HR team and our operations team, I’ll come up with different plans and different assignments. I give people ownership for a certain topic that someone’s going to work on. Especially now with COVID, updating our COVID policies which have to be updated every week because of CDC changes and trainings. Always delegating certain things and going through the best practices. Oftentimes, it’s just giving people the tools and saying, okay, this is your project, you work on this, you work on that and let’s all basically meet up here and go over it and share ideas and inputs. Everyone has their own topic and then they can collaborate together.

Because one of the great things about diversity and inclusion is the more minds you have with different backgrounds to look at something, the more you capture, the better off you are. If everyone was just like me, it would be pretty boring. So it’s great to have different people with different experiences, different mindsets. Creatively reaching out to people. Maybe it’s looking up to see what people’s backgrounds are and asking them if they’d be interested in contributing. Sometimes it’s right before you, saying okay, this person can work on this topic, this person can work on reasonable accommodations, this person could work on how to attract more people to apply. I write comedy on the side as a hobby. So one of the things I do is clustering. I’ll write an idea, then I put ten poles out with each idea that pops into my head about it and that’s the same thing that goes with project management, law, problem solving. You start to see all the different spectrums of all the different issues that derive from one idea. Sometimes it’s just a list, or brainstorming which often times are very useful, at least for me.

William D. Goren: I don’t know anybody in corporate America who is a head attorney for a company that… How many of them are out with their disability? I don’t think it’s many. And then, regardless, true believers trying to make a difference for people with disabilities and yet maintaining their obligations to the corporation. Can’t be more than five of you, period.

Bethany Drucker: I think people are ashamed or embarrassed to say they have a disability. They think maybe they are afraid of the reaction they’re going to get.

William D. Goren: Definitely.

Bethany Drucker: I didn’t ask to be born like this. I joke with my parents and like, “What genes did I get?” But I’m very lucky because I can work. I live an extremely healthy lifestyle. Some people say I’m boring; I don’t drink; I don’t smoke; I exercise; don’t eat processed food. But I’m alive and I’m able to contribute. So if there’s anything I can give back to people, I do, because that’s what I think is part of my purpose. I think if I can help people, we can inspire people and bring them up. And also, from an economic standpoint, more people that are able to work is better than the people that can’t work. People don’t want to be on disability. People can then get depression and then it just catapults into other issues, whether it’s drinking or not eating well or more depression. People need to have routines. People need to be involved in things and people shouldn’t be ashamed if they have a disability.Someone should be ashamed if they’re an awful person, if they’re a mean person. Those are things people should be ashamed of. Not a disability. I think that stigma just has to go out the door.

William D. Goren: Let me ask you one more question, because I know you’re so busy, but one of the things that I have seen with people with disabilities, is that it’s almost impossible for us to find mentors. And I did not find a mentor until, at 48, I was actually teaching people how to be paralegals full time and then I had a couple of people at that institution, South Suburban College actually, who stepped up and said, “Listen, here are your strengths, go do them. We know you have weaknesses, but we love that stuff. So just give that to us and you just go do what you do best”. I’d been a licensed attorney since 25. So, it took me 23 years to find a mentor. Where do we find our mentors especially since people with disabilities silo terribly. Just because I’m deaf and identify as small deaf proud, that doesn’t mean I’m going to get someone with epilepsy or MS or anything else? So, I am wondering what your thoughts were on that.

Bethany Drucker: That’s remarkable. I think that actually leads to an idea of maybe there is a network where people can get a mentor. Like for instance, there’s cancer networks where someone can basically be assigned to someone who had that type of cancer so they can learn from them. Maybe there’s a network of professionals. And it doesn’t have to all be lawyers. It could be other people, whether it’s a CPA or someone else, where someone has a mentor, a professional mentor to help them.

William D. Goren: I’m thinking of you get thrown into the very competitive business of the law and you have a disability that you’re open about it or you’re thinking about being open about it, where do you find someone that can say, “Hey, that’s okay. Here’s how you might go about it. Here’s things to think about”. I don’t think there is such a place.

Bethany Drucker: There isn’t. There isn’t that I’m aware of.

William D. Goren: Me neither. So the question then becomes, since there’s nothing out there, do you have any suggestions as to how such an individual, besides just pure blind luck, finds such a person?

Bethany Drucker: In this day of social media, whether on LinkedIn maybe people could ask for help. I think we have to maybe create something, whether it’s this forum, we let people know in the legal community, hey, if you need someone, reach out to us. We can help you. And ideally, eventually, what I’d like, if there’s a three year plan, I’d love to have enough awareness training and action taken in the legal community, where other general counsels, other employment law counsels in house, the attorneys in law firms, where they have someone in those law firms they can go to. Someone that’s not just HR; someone that they can maybe go to as a mentor.

William D. Goren: I can’t imagine your company litigating itself. Do you insist that the companies that do your litigation have people with disabilities staff your cases?

Bethany Drucker: I have never used outside counsel.

William D. Goren: Wow. That’s mind boggling.

Bethany Drucker: Caveat. There was one matter where I did consult with a firm over something that wasn’t employment law related. But short of work comp defense, we haven’t had any need for litigation. I was brought into the company because they were using a very respected law firm that was handling a case for them. Since I came in, we haven’t had anything filed. I should knock on wood. We haven’t had any need for litigation. There’s no budget for outside counsel spend because we haven’t needed it. We don’t have any litigation. A lot of staffing companies are in litigation now with Title VII issues, antitrust issues, wage and hour issues, national labor review board issues. We have zero and I’m trying to keep it that way.

William D. Goren: I’m just thrilled to meet you. Who says LinkedIn doesn’t lead you anywhere because it put us together. Thank you so much and I look forward to staying in touch and keep up the great work for your company. If you could only convert more of your fellow general counsels to your being true believers and seeing the point of all this, that’d be wonderful.

Bethany Drucker: I think we will. I think we will. I think, as time goes on, I think people are really seeing awareness. So much has happened in 2020 and some of it has been awful, but some of it has been wonderful. So you have to look at where we can go from here.

William D. Goren: I agree with that. I am seeing a different mindset with respect to the rights of people with disabilities, now that we’re in COVID-19, than I was before. Even on phone calls with lawyers, I’m seeing lawyers be much more human than they used to be, sharing many more things than they used to. I think we are seeing a different mindset now and that is one thing positive from this.

Bethany Drucker: People have to change their cultures within their organizations if they want overall change. And you can still be a very effective general counsel or corporate counsel and not speak legalese, not have to be so formal all the time. Again, I say, roll up your sleeves, get a little dirty, talk with everyone. Obviously all legally correct. There’s nothing wrong with being casual. When I speak with a complainant, I’ll call them at night so I’m not interfering them during the workday. People have to treat people like you want to be treated. I rarely say anything legalese because who wants to hear that. I identify myself with my role and what the purpose is, but no-one needs to be spoken down to or condescended. We all can speak the same language.

William D. Goren: Thank you so much for a fabulous interview. I know the readers and the Federal Bar Association will so much enjoy this.

Bethany Drucker: Thank you so much.

About Bethany Drucker

Since 2014 Bethany Drucker has served as General Counsel for ASG Staffing, Inc. (“ASG”). Each day, Ms. Drucker is entrenched in employment law, contract matters and business compliance as a one-person legal team for this light industrial staffing company that issues out approximately 12,000 W-2’s a year and is in three states.  By proactivity, legal compliance, active listening to the needs of the employees and the clients, Ms. Drucker has kept ASG free from litigation and thoroughly enjoys her hands on role.  Ms. Drucker works hand in hand with the host clients to ensure that diversity and inclusion is a reality amongst the workforces. She embraces the philosophy that a General Counsel’s role is to wear many hats that further the business needs and to maintain the highest level of integrity and ethics at all time.

Ms. Drucker brings over 18 years practicing law to ASG, which includes work in state, federal and local investigations on the governmental side. Throughout her career and personal life, Ms. Drucker has advocated for fairness for all and has written editorials on the benefits of hiring ex-offenders and eradicating disparate treatment. As a person with disabilities, Ms. Drucker is an everyday supporter for others with disabilities.

Ms. Drucker obtained her Bachelor of Science degree in Journalism from Boston University and a Juris Doctorate from Hofstra University where she co-authored an article on mediation. While in law school, Ms. Drucker worked full-time as owner and operator of two retail stores.

Ms. Drucker is also trained mediator and a comedy writer hobbyist. She lives in Evanston, IL with her two dogs.

About the Interviewer

William D. Goren, Esq., of William D. Goren, J.D., LL.M. LLC in Decatur, GA, has 30 years of experience dealing with the ADA as an Attorney. His law and consulting practice as well as his blog, Understanding the ADA, http://www.williamgoren.com/blog/ (a member of the ABA Top 100 for five consecutive years, 2014-2018- there was no ABA 100 in 2019), all focus on understanding the ADA so that the client understands what it means to comply with that law. In particular, he provides consulting, counseling, representation, and training services involving compliance with the Americans with Disabilities Act, Rehabilitation Act of 1973, and related laws. Mr. Goren also brings a deep, personal understanding of what it means to have a disability, equipping him with exceptional insight on how the ADA actually works. He is deaf with a congenital bilateral hearing loss of 65–90+ decibels, but functions entirely in the hearing world thanks to hearing aids and lip-reading. For reasons independent of his deafness, he also uses voice dictation technology to access his computer.He is also a frequent presenter, a trained mediator, a FINRA arbitrator, and an arbitrator on the CPR employment panel. Finally, he is the author of Understanding the ADA, now in its 4th edition (ABA 2013), and numerous other articles on the rights of persons with disabilities.  Interesting fact: He trained his miniature poodle to be a hearing dog while he practices virtually.

About the FBA

Founded in 1920, the Federal Bar Association is dedicated to the advancement of the science of jurisprudence and to promoting the welfare, interests, education, and professional development of all attorneys involved in federal law. Our more than 16,000 members run the gamut of federal practice: attorneys practicing in small to large legal firms, attorneys in corporations and federal agencies, and members of the judiciary. The FBA is the catalyst for communication between the bar and the bench, as well as the private and public sectors. Visit us at fedbar.org to learn more.